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Organic does not necessarily mean local and sustainable but local and sustainable often means organic but not necessarily USDA Organic.

The amount of bureaucratic bullshoy a little farmer has to go through to be certified organic is often times not worth it.

This is somewhat tricky because while it is great that our government inspects and grades our food supply for our health and safety, do we need the government to tell us that our local farmer is up to their standards? It would be terrible if a producer were marketing oneself as up to organic standards and really were not. But I know who I trust more.

If a farmer tells you that he has never used chemicals or processed feed on his land and that his father never used such things on the land before him and so on and so on, I would trust him and his food would be organically grown. There are a lot of people like that out there but they are difficult to find outside of the restaurant world. That is the great thing about farmers markets and co-ops though. Hopefully these are enough to save these folks who are doing everything right because they know it's right but have so much working against them.

It's fascinating to see what irrelevant magical properties have been attributed to organic produce... No wonder so many big-biz growers want it defined in a way that makes their product fit.

I personally eat organic for the health benefits - keeping my pesticide intake low and also because more and more nutritional studies show that organic produce has higher levels of nutrients than conventionally grown. I agree with Art that small farmers really get the short end of the stick since organic certification is such a lengthy and expensive process. It's a shame, because these are the people who should be benefiting from the public's new interest in sustainable agriculture.

The thing with the whole "organic" term is that they don't use pesticides, or anything like that right? Well, if they aren't using products (which cost money) how is it that organic food is soooooo much more expensive? It reminds me of the time when bottled water was all the craze and you were deemed not as healthy as someone who only drank it. It just seems more of a trendy moniker than anything else.

Pesticides are a very cheap chemical, sprayed on a HUGE plot of produce, that ensures that very little of the product is eaten by bugs or animals. Therefore they can grow lots and lots of produce, with very little human interaction, collect it all with one giant machine, and sell it all.

Organics require human attention, yearly crop rotations, and still a good amount is lost to pests,.. therefore this produce is more precious. A human's wage aught to be fair, right? Plus, to be certified organic costs a LOT of money to the government (a scam, or a commitment to the practice?) so that cost is passed on to the consumer.

When it comes to meat and milk, it's a whole other layer. The food grown is pesticide free, and then the animals are taken care by humans, in much smaller farms, so they don't get sick and die. The animals often have names, and certainly so do the farmers.

In big, conventional farms, the animals are "manufactured" in the thousands, in giant warehouses where they're not given any room to walk anywhere, and stuffed with antibiotics (so they don't get sick and infect others), and hormones (to grow faster, bigger animals = more meat/milk). These hormones have been attributed to 9 year old girls getting their periods, and antibiotics lead to super-flus that can't be destroyed.

So with a tiny farm, there's more workers and less product = more $ for a fair wage. With a large farm, like say, Cascadian that's owned by General Mills, they can pay their workers lower wages, but charge more because, well, they can.

Hope this helps..

Oh, I also wanted to mention that organic animals are fed grass and a balanced diet, rather than cheap, genetically modified corn, which leads to very unhealthy animals. When you have to maintain lots of land for your animals to roam and graze, vs buying cheap corn, it's a lot of $ for the farmer, and again, passed on to us.

I'd still rather pay a bit more for a healthy animal and a happy farmer, than sad food grown without human attention.

In my opinion, buying local products at Whole Foods and farmers markets means that it's all natural and with attention, and it's not being shipped across the globe. It also means eating with the seasons, as arugula cannot grow in the winter in NY, and no one's harvesting acorn squash here now..which is heartier and better for the winter.

It's pretty scary to think that a "sick" animal to an organic farmer is a "healthy" animal to the commodity market. For example, a sick organic chicken gets sold to somebody that will give it drugs and eventually process it.

Cheflaura brings up an interesting point relating to raising the animals. These farmers give them a happy life. They are free to roam, eat good food, they may even be called by names.

But right now, many of the farmers do not have their own processing facilities, or to put it bluntly, their own kill floors. That means these animals who have never seen a cage, or other animals, or other people, may have to be loaded onto a truck, endure a long drive, then be herded into a lot with other animals awaiting their impending doom. They are stressed, they often get bit, they are confused... Pigs, for example, are very smart, I don't like what they must have to go through in situations like these.

Why can't the farmers kill their own animals, because the government must inspect the process of course. Governmental inspection again is very expensive. On top of that, much of the animal must be thrown in the garbage, labeled unusable and then be destroyed through incineration or other methods.

Actually, there are a lot of loopholes in the "organic" label relating to animal care - vegetarians often refer to this as the illusion of "happy meat". The animal is healthier, yes, but phrases like "access" to the outdoors leave a lot of room for interpretation. This is mainly an issue with the large "organic" factory-type farms.

Has anyone here checked out the book "GRUB: Ideas for an Urban Organic Kitchen"? It's a fantastic read, and has a ton of info on what exactly "organic" entails.

Our American supply and demand economics keep working against what is good I guess?

We want and we get. We want cheaper we get cheaper. What is the price for this scenario and who or what is paying for it?

Art,

We are paying for it - in tax dollars. The government gives only a miniscule persentage of its subsidies to organic farmers, while other high-grossing conventional crops/livestock are grossly over-supported. I recently read that in a truly free economy, beef would cost $38 per pound. So really, it's not that organic is more expensive, but that we pre-pay to have conventional be cheap on the shelves. Ah, food politics...

I guess we are paying for it in tax dollars. I was thinking more along the lines of the small local farmers paying for it by no longer having a family business. The environment is continuing to pay for it as we barge, truck, plane and train our organic products to our local stores. As long as the demand for organic continues, the prices will eventually be affordable for most people. Once Wal-Mart gets a hold of something, like they have begun to with organic products, they will squeeze until they bust the eyes out of their producers and get the price they want, then we can all afford to buy organic. The local guy better get his shit together then. Or maybe he can sell his land to the organic factory farm that has already wrapped itself around his meager acreage. Or maybe he can take out another loan to go certified organic himself.

That organic stamp is another symbol of marketing genius. This is America, this is what we do. We market and we sell and we do it better than anyone else. That stamp = cash to big business producers.

"Well, if they aren't using products (which cost money) how is it that organic food is soooooo much more expensive?"

First, most (tho not all) organic farmers are growing fruits, vegetables, dairy and meat. These are unsubsidized crops. Subsidized crops (sugar, soybeans, corn, wheat and something else that slips my mind) have controlled prices and farmers get federal funds and federal assistance. Less tax dollars going to the farmer means higher prices.

Second, since fruits, veggies, dairy and meat don't have price controls the way federally subsidized crops do, farmers are allowed to price the product at whatever the market will bear. They have strong incentives to do so too, since they're not getting much government help.

The pest issue is certainly a part of the high prices, but it's not the *only* factor. Even conventionally grown produce has had sharp price increases over the last decade. In my area, I can buy organic, locally grown and slaughtered chicken for less per pound than I'd spend on local, conventionally grown produce. Why? Chickens are mostly fed corn or soybeans, so chickens are indirectly subsidized.

Torrilin, if your theory is correct, your chickens are not organic if they are fed subsidized corn because that corn would not be organic. This could be another explanation why organic meat is so much more expensive, because their feed must be organically grown as well. I'd say you are very fortunate to be able to buy inexpensive organic chickens. That farmer is probably barely covering their expenses.

I know a farmer who grows his own corn field just for his pigs to graze on. His family also eats the corn.