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Even if your relative is only 20 or 30 yrs old, it's still rude (imho) to request something special.
If he can't have just the veggies, then call ahead and ask her if you can bring something. Try to let her know what you would like to bring, so that it will go well with the rest of the food.

i don't think its rude at all - as long as you bring something that you can share with everyone, its an extra contribution, which seems like a nice thing to me.

Laura, the fact that you seem so considerate of both your husbands wishes and that of your host tells me you are naturally a very gracious person. I can't see how bringing a special dish would be considered rude in the spirit for which you are doing it. As Merm said, bring enough to share. I know I'd certainly understand if you were a guest of mine and consider you actions to be very thoughtful.

As a recovering vegetarian I have some understanding of the considerations. 1) I think it is somewhat rude to bring a main dish thing to someones planned or traditional dinner. 2) I found vegetarianism to be burdensome in social settings - makes you and your dietary habits the center of attention and detracts from the occasion. 3) Especially around the holidays there is plenty of things to eat that are not meat based. Why not just go and let the host enjoy the efforts of their work and enjoy the occasion. Vegetarian or not, I bet you will not leave hungry. If you do, you'll live.

Just one person's opinion.

As someone who has suffered due to allergies to most meats for over 11 years I know what it's like to take seperate items with me and I've found that usually with a little mention to the host they're usually quite thankful that they aren't being burdened to create another dish to satisfy my needs.

In fact this afternoon I'm going to be preparing the quinoa stuffed squash that I discovered on the website last year and I'll just pop it in the oven tomorrow to reheat before the Christmas feast! http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/vegetable/recipe-quinoa-stuffed-sweet-dumpling-squash-072643

Don't be ashamed but just be well prepared and I'm sure the evening will go off without a hitch!

If it's just one meal I wouldn't bring an alternate, as most likely there will be enough to eat without a mail dish. If you will be there for an extended stay, I would mention it to the family plus come stocked to help feed your husband for the duration.

I think the key is to contact the host and let them know of the situation. Offering to bring something that can be served in the same manner as other dishes is generous.

It depends on how you want to present yourself.

Traditional politeness: Politely decline the turkey and make a meal out of the non-meat dishes. Grocery store holiday meals are unlikely to pull the "bacon in everything" trick, so you should be fine with mashed potatoes, green beans, and maybe even the stuffing.

Modern politeness: Ask first. Better still, ask in a way that suggests that you are being helpful by volunteering to bring more food rather than insisting on bringing something for yourself ("would you like for us to bring another dish?" is good, "we are worried that there won't be anything for us to eat, so can we bring a vegetarian main dish for ourselves?" is pushing it).

Self-absorbed oafishness: Show up with an unannounced extra dish and make sure to let everyone know it's because you refuse to eat the food provided by the host.

Let me start by stating that both the bf and I are vegan, so we understand your predicament. You are standing at a fork in the road. It'd be fine to bring a dish, especially if you clear it with the host ahead of time and provide something that combines well with her meal. I wouldn't necessarily bring a main dish, but rather a filling side. Brining a main dish can cause conflict for two reasons: first, people feel obligated to try what you bring, so that may detract from her main, 2- it draws more attention to the vegetarian.

Like others have said, it's just one meal. Vegetarians can eat most sides on the table, appetizers, desserts, etc. He'll likely leave with a full belly, and no meal planning or extended explanation will be necessary.

As a vegan, I usually eat a large, satisfying snack before family gatherings and bring a side or dessert. For instance, tonight we went to my man's step-aunt's house for xmas eve. We brought vegan banana bread, which was enjoyed by all. We ate salad, veggies, fruit, and our bread. Sure, we had to get a snack later tonight, but it all worked out.

Frankly, I think it's rude to accept a dinner invitation knowing that you will not eat the main course. Can't you, for one night, put your vegetarian needs aside for the sake of a caring person who has gone to the time and effort to host a meal. Eat what you can and do not draw attention to your dietary preferences. It's frustrating to cook a meal and have someone turn up their nose. It's impossible to cook a meal to please everyone's preferences. So, in the name of good manners, eat what you can and be thankful for the host's invitation. Leave your special side dishes at home. I've been the cook too many times and felt like a short order cook catering to the whims of each person just to have a family Thanksgiving and Christmas meal. Be thankful for what you have and gracious but no carry-along side dishes.

It's not rude if you bring some to share!

As a frequent hostess and near vegetarian (I eat meat about once a week), I cook with my vegetarian friends in mind. I still cook with meat, but if I know a vegetarian is coming, I'll make sure I have at least three dishes they can eat, usually by switching to vegetable stock, leaving out bacon bits, etc. It's never a problem, and most of my vegetarian friends will bring a dish to share and help expand our carnivorous horizons. I did have one friend in college who turned her nose up at my potato salad when I'd left the bacon bits out especially for her. That irked me a bit, but for the most part, it's no big deal. It's when people expect others to make special arrangements for them that it becomes rude. I say bring a dish that most of the guests would be willing to try (i.e., not too scary). No host should be offended by a guest bringing something yummy to their table.

For me, this depends on the situation. My close friends know my dietary preferences, and generally make an effort to accommodate them.

In other circumstances, I just eat what is put in front of me - whether it is something that I don't eat (meat) or something I just don't like.

I think that my role as a guest trumps my dietary choices and preferences. My job as a guest requires me to appreciate and accept what is offered and to avoid making the host uncomfortable. Of course medical issues, like allergies, take priority over everything.

On the other hand, at events with close family, I just offer to bring something, and make sure it is both substantial and something I will enjoy eating, and nobody thinks twice. So a lot of it depends on your relationship with the host.

Ya know, it's funny that so many people regard indiscriminating omnivores as more socially sensitive than vegetarians, who actually tend to choose their diet with social concerns in mind. Just sayin'.

Laura, it's definitely not rude to bring food for the meal. But, it probably shouldn't be a main dish and you should bring enough for everybody.

Have a chat with your host. Chances are, she may enjoy the opportunity to cook something 'different' and provide an alterative dish herself , if she knows what your husband does/doesn't eat (many of my friends enjoy expanding their culinary reportoire this way!) but do offer to bring a veggie alternative yourselves.

I can't imagine your relative being anything other than understanding and supportive. I mean, what kind of 'host' would seriously expect a guest to put their compassion on hold and eat something they find abhorrant just to satisfy that host's ego! That said, I insist on force-feeding all my guests vegan meals (heheheh!!!).... they don't scare easily, not even when I reach for the brown lentils......

I've been the twit who insisted on bringing my own meal to a dinner party. I've been the rigid eater who insisted on eating only what I limited myself to. As i look back on these parties, some in very elegant settings or at college professors houses, I was never invited back. The host acted gracious and accomodated my "carry in" but I was not invited again. Truly, I regret being so narrow minded about my diet. Too many doors were closed.

Why not let your husband be the one who deals with this situation and any fallout? He's the one with the special needs. Seems like it depends entirely on your relationship with host, although at ninety, I'd guess it might be rather more delicate than with younger folks, but I can only guess. Since host is ordering a catered meal, that means she/he is probably not cooking so might not want to have to cook something just for your DH. Also probably means it will cost a good bit. Be appreciative. Situation also depends on service - will you be served, or is it buffet? I don't think the food police will be monitoring everything your husband puts on his plate in a buffet situation. Maybe no one will notice if he skips some dishes. As pointed out, he can eat ahead and after the dinner, and still survive. I know how hard it is to accommodate vegetarians, especially if you don't know their particular list of rules. Bend over backwards to be as gracious as possible since you are the guests and the host is putting him/herself out both financially and with effort.

I agree wholeheartedly with phoxx's post. I too used to be a vegetarian, but frankly, it became too difficult in social situations (and yes, I missed meat the entire 4 years I was a vegetarian). I did not want to put anyone out, or draw attention to my eating choices, and did not want to offend any hosts.

"When in Rome" became my motto. If there is not a serious health issue (an allergy, intolerance or other such legitimate health condition), I would not draw attention to food choices in any way. And it *is* a choice to be vegetarian -- your husband's choice is his choice, and he has to learn to live with it without making other people go out of their way to accommodate him (and that includes you).

I think it is quite rude to bring your own food (again, unless there is a serious health issue), whether it is catered or home cooked.

When I was much younger, I visited a new boyfriend's house for Christmas dinner. He had advised his mom that I was a vegetarian but please not to do anything special. I was fine with eating salad and sweet potatoes. When mom started serving the turkey, she urged me to take some. I politely declined stating that I was a vegetarian, in case she had somehow forgotten. She replied, "Oh no, take some turkey, it's not meat."

It's not that big of a deal. Merry123 had the right idea; just fit in if it's a simple one meal visit. Usually folks don't notice you not taking the turkey if you don't make a fuss.

This thread makes me so sad.

Sleek1, why do people expect vegetarians to "just have veggies" at a dinner. Being a vegetarian for allergy or ethical reasons should be approached the same. A good chef/host considers his/her guests dietary needs before the menu is set. Because the husband is a new vegetarian, of course the hostess wasn't aware. But your comment irked me a bit. I just had to say "everyone, stop assuming vegetarians will just eat sides like vegetables and be satisfied, please."

Vegetarians like to eat (and eat a lot) too. And just because a person is vegetarian doesn't mean they like plain vegetables more than anyone else.

Vegans and vegetarians are well aware that sometimes people don't understand how to make "vegetarian/vegan" food so they usually will bring a huge casserole or something to contribute and every one wins.

It depends on the gathering, I would think. If it's a big potluck affair with everyone chipping in a dish, then by all means bring your own food. If not, then it's definitely rude. I agree with the person who said it's NEVER okay to bring a main dish that might compete with the hostess's meal. I also agree with the person who said to eat a little something at home if you're really worried about going hungry. I'm not a vegetarian, but I try not to eat a lot of meat or poultry. There have been many times that I've gone to someone else's home and CHOSEN not to eat the main dish. I would hope that a gracious host or hostess wouldn't expect me to compromise myself by eating meat. And being a gracious guest, I would never want to make my hosts feel guilty because they "didn't consider my self-imposed dietary restrictions." So yes, I eat the veggies and keep my mouth shut. It's ONE MEAL!

I too find this thread depressing. I suppose we must all also conform to the host's religious and political beliefs for the day so as not to cause any offense?

I don't think it is at all rude to take a side dish if you've spoken to the host in advance and, for the love of God, no one is obligated to suffer through any part of a meal just to please the cook.

Sheesh people, lighten up on the vegetarians.

As a vegetarian for more than 15 years, I can honestly say that the holidays suck and nothing sucks more than going to a feast and having nothing available to eat.

Most of my friends and relatives know I am a vegetarian and usually ask that I bring an entree. Typically, I make enough to share, and there is rarely anything to take back home with me.

On the other hand, my wife is not a vegetarian and usually wants meat when we host a dinner, so I end up having to cook 2 entrees when we host.

I should also note that I am a decent cook and like doing it, so it's not that big of a deal. If I did not cook, I may have a different slant on things (and probably wouldn't eat only veg, either)

Yep, it's a fairly depressing discussion, but one that needs to be had and read. Since the holidays are a time for butter and broth, beef and turkey, potatoes with cream and MORE butter. Bacon with the green beans and so on, it can be a minefield. Offer to bring something that will compliment the host's meal offerings. If you fear a lack of selection, by all means, eat before you go and dine on what if available when at the table. There are lots of good advice in this thread, some I will keep in mind.

I would no more put my health and ethical concerns about eating meat on hold for the sake of another person than I would my health and ethical concerns about, say, drinking alcohol or using drugs, or kicking people on the street, for that matter. If someone is really so petty as to find my refusal to eat meat personally offensive enough to decline to offer any further dinner invitations I say good riddance to bad rubbish. I usually offer to take one or more vegetarian dishes to share, rely on sides (ask ahead to find out what's on offer and if they're vegetarian) or, if that isn't possible, I eat before I got to a gathering where there might not be sufficient vegetarian choices. It's terrible hosting to send a guest home hungry and I would be ashamed to do it myself, so I imagine most people would be more than happy to accommodate vegetarians. Also, although some posters seem to opine to the contrary, just because someone is of an older generation, it's unfair and foolish to assume that he or she will be hostile to change or scandalised by normal human behaviour. Elderly people know about sex, drugs, and rock and roll so I doubt vegetarianism will frighten them.

lona, I think the times have changed regarding people respecting other people's eating ethics/decisions. I would argue that anyone who so rigidly cannot accept other people's eating habits are the truly rigid ones.

Hotfolks, Greeneryart and Donsie_Lass, you are more than welcome to graze at my table anytime! We can eat ourselves senseless and, after dessert, we can re-read a selection of the more uptight and ridiculously offensive comments found here and have a bloody good laugh at the expense of the idiots who wrote them.

Can you imagine having to sit at a table with people who regard vegetarians and vegans as being anti-social misfits with special needs? It's like all the blinkered veggie-bashers have stepped out of the meat locker at once (perhaps AT would like to do a feature on said meat locker?) and I'm just gob-smacked because I didn't think people like that seriously existed (most people I know are meat-eaters and they're, well, just lovely, normal people!)Do these closet-cases have equally bigotted views towards people who do not eat meat for religious reasons? Silly buggers!

What a timely question, since my boyfriend and I went hunger at xmas dinner last night - the only side dishes which were meat-free were potatoes and peas.

I also find it distressing that people still believe that vegetarianism is such a huge issue - to the extent that it's putting people out. What about people who keep Kosher? are they supposed to 'put that on hold' as well?

I'm a lifetime vegetarian, and putting that 'on hold' for one evening isn't an option - my body won't digest meat and I have become violently ill in the past when someone thinks it's clever and amusing to 'slip the vegetarian some beef broth'.

As a host, I prefer ahead of time if people let me know any dietary restrictions they may have. As a guest, I have no problem offering to help with dinner, including cooking a dish which a person might not have considered, one with protein, since that's the main thing people seem to think Vegetarian's live without.

Tonight, we're cooking most of the meal, and of course everyone can suppliment our vegetarian meal with all the meaty leftovers they like. I won't be insulted in the least.

I am not a vegetarian, but I don't eat sugar/refined starches for the sake of avoiding diabetes, which runs all over my family, so I run into a lot of these same etiquette questions. Here's what works for me, and I've never run into an upset hostess:

I always talk to the hostess maybe three days ahead of time and explain that I can't eat sugar. I tell the hostess that I am looking forward to coming but that I don't want to cause any difficulties or awkwardness, I ask what she would prefer I do, and I tell her I'm willing to do whatever is easiest for her. That way, it's up to the hostess and lets her know that I do have needs but that I'm concerned for her and the amount of work and care that goes into hosting. If she tells me there's plenty on the menu I can work around, I'll do that. Or if she tells it'd be easier for me bring something I know I can eat, I'll do that.

If you put the ball in the hostess' court, it's hard to offend her.

Unless he's a vegetarian for health reasons, he's just acting like a spoiled brat craving attention. If he's not willing to eat what the host is serving, he should politely decline the invitation.

Hey Laura, what'd you do?

I've been a vegetarian forty years... I must say I have never found myself going hungry at any family or friendly gathering nor has anyone ever been upset if I brought something delicious to share.

I agree with Trish1980...though I'm curious to hear what Laura decided to do about the situation...

Isn't this a bit like accepting an invitation to a bridge party and bringing a scrabble board with you? If this is not your kind of dinner, just stay at home.

I totally agree with Trish1980.

@ladymantle:

Sometimes, there are events/dinners/parties you simply can't politely get out of attending every time, such as meeting the boyfriend's parents (has to happen sometime!), funeral reception meals, graduation dinners, etc. Would it not be rude to back out of every event where you can't control the menu simply on account of possible dietary conflicts?

There needs to be a balance between not having totally to sacrifice one's dietary needs with being social and accepting invitations. The two need not be mutually exclusive.

@ladymantle - I forgot to add: Any truly good hostess knows, or should know, that entertaining requires hospitality. Otherwise, why entertain in the first place? Hospitality is not about the hostess. It's all about caring for guests' comfort, happiness, and needs. A gracious hostess should be entirely understanding of people's dietary needs, so long as those can be accommodated within reason. IMHO, if a hostess takes offense at reasonable requests, then she's not a good hostess.

I agree with Trish1980 as long as it's a health issue - I have chronic bronchitis and always make sure in advance the party is non-smoking (not always the case in Europe). If there is smoking, I just politely explain why I cannot come.
However, the case in question is obviously a matter of choice. The hostess has gone to great lengths to plan and order the food and her reward is watching her guests enjoy her choice of complementary dishes. Choosing not to eat what is served or even bringing one's own dish is an insult. If the neophyte vegetarian cannot bring himself to enjoy the offered food, he should stay at home and get treatment for his orthorexia neurosa.

I think that Trish1980 said it best. Perfect advice.

Trish, I agree with you as long as it's a health issue. However, the case in question obviously is not. If somebody just decides to be difficult, it's his problem. There seems to be no medical reason why that man cannot eat a piece of turkey to please a 90 year old lady. Obviously, he's either rude or mentally ill.

But it cannot be solely about health. Let's say the guest in question is Jewish, and there's concern about the presence of pork, or a Catholic, who cannot eat meat on Fridays in Lent. That Jewish or Catholic guest's dietary needs are real even if they are not medically based, and that guest is not just trying to be difficult. A vegetarian who truly has as much of a right to avoid eating meat as the Jew avoiding pork. That really runs much deeper for that person than simply not preferring chicken for flavor reasons.

But I did say that there needs to be balance in all of this, and things need to be done within reason. If a person is really just being difficult (indeed, I have encountered this often enough), it's a different case, and that violates the 'within reason' condition.

Trish, being a vegetarian is not a religion, it's an eating disorder. These people should be encouraged to seek treatment, not supported.

Vegetarianism is not a religion, but nor is it an eating disorder. It's a discipline. I'm not vegetarian by any means (mmm...hamburger...), but I understand that many people don't eat meat for many reasons, ranging from religion to health to whatever. I'm sure some people's reason for vegetarianism might be an eating disorder, but that doesn't mean vegetarianism itself is an eating disorder.

Crikey, I had no idea that the AT forums were concealing so many omnivore bigots!

Assuming that someone is "rude or mentally ill" because they'd rather pass on the turkey is one of the silliest things I've ever read!

All the best advice has been given: ask ahead, prepare a filling side dish, bring enough for everyone, try to do it all without calling attention to yourself. If you're reasonable, considerate, and polite, you can almost always avoid a social faux pas.

Making statements about perfect strangers having mental disorders because they have made different choices than you regarding their food intake, on the other hand, will guarantee a faux pas every time.

I second JoJenks.

Actually, I wouldn't take Ladymantle seriously . I've come across her comments before and they are almost always either ridiculously offensive, or just simply ridiculous -
a glance at her profile will reassure you that Ladymantle could only be a spoof!

Although, I find it interesting that, while there have been derogatory comments made, attacking vegetarians and vegans purely because of their choice of diet, (and that these comments have, in turn, been condemned by BOTH veggies and non-veggies alike) there doesn't appear to be a single comment made by anyone that, likewise, insults, belittles, mocks or condemns meat-eaters for their choice of diet. ;)

Anyway, enough with the 'food fight', (I think it's probably a safe bet that Laura will think twice before asking AT for advice again!! lol) I know we're not quite there yet but, Happy New Year, One & All, whatever you put on your plate!!

It shocks me that there are so many people out there that will spend so much time and energy getting worked up about what another person eats.

In my family (and Laura was talking about a FAMILY event), we have to work around a comical array of dietary needs - diabetics, celiac's disease, allergies to onions, peppers and mushrooms, and vegetarianism (me). No one is ever asked to eat something that can't or prefer not to eat - that's like saying "I will be insulted if you do not eat this thing even though it will make you very ill." (And yes, many long-time vegetarians will become ill if they eat meat.) We work around it all, because that's what you do for people you care about.

Holiday meals with the family are a time to spend together, not a time to get all up in each other's eating habits. No one would be expected to stay home just because they don't plan on eating the main dish. That's like saying the person isn't worthy of being included unless they eat a piece of turkey.

But I suppose everyone has their priorities. If you choose to care more about the food than the people you invite to share the food, then you might as well just have your meal alone.

Ok...I just went through this very situation on Christmas Eve....

This was my first Christmas with my boyfriend and he wanted to host Christmas Eve at his house. I offered to cook the dinner for the 11 of us (his family). I had met everyone in the family except his brother in law. I of course wanted to impress his family so I made beef wellington, scalloped potatoes and glazed carrots. We also made baked ziti with sausage and red peppers for the kids to eat.

As I'm getting all the food ready to put on the table, I was told that the brother in law is a vegetarian. I was upset that no one had told me ahead of time... i had bacon in the scalloped potatoes, sausage in the ziti, and of course the beef wellington was out...so all he had to eat was carrots! I went through the trouble of making such a gourmet meal and then the spotlight of the meal was the fact that Bill only had carrots to eat!!!

Please tell the host or hostess if you or someone with you is vegetarian. You can work out a plan that suits you both. I went through a lot of trouble to make a very impressive meal, I would have certainly accomodated a vegetarian had I known...

As an aside...if you are a vegetarian, please make sure whatever you bring is ok'ed by the host. It would be very rude to bring a main dish that is enough to feed yourself and everyone else and have all the guests eat what you brought instead of the hosts food!

In a situation like this, the best course of action is to call the hostess and explain that your husband no longer eats meat. Then ask her how it'd be best to handle this (you bringing a dish, or if she'll make plans to accommodate his dietary needs). If you do wind up bringing food though, please consult with her about what to bring, as it would be rude to bring food that interfered with the general flow of the meal, and also make sure it's enough food for everyone to have some (instead of just a single portion for your husband).

If a situation arises where the hostess is unwilling to accommodate his dietary needs (since some people are simply too rigid to work with people who have special dietary needs), then the only acceptable thing to do is for him to eat a small dinner at home before you go, and then for him to sample any sides and/or desserts that fit within the confines of his diet. It would be impolite for him to draw attention to the fact he isn't partaking of the holiday food, so leaving enough room in his stomach to sample acceptable items and simply ignoring the meat-based foods should work fine.

For an average potluck dinner, its perfectly fine to bring something along, with permission its even alright to bring something along for a buffet dinner. But in our house we have a sit down dinner, I start planning out the menu after thanksgiving, and there are courses that are set in stone, it is not alright to bring something to a meal like that, and 3 days notice of dietary needs is just not enough. Its not that we are anti vegetarian, in fact we are vegetarians in the summers, albeit without eating soy and are gluten free for most of the year. We've never had a strict vegetarian for christmas dinner, I would imagine I would simple serve them some courses out of turn and slightly increase the quantity they receive. A vegetarian would have been able to have 4 of the 7 courses this year, and thus would probably gone home rather happy, a vegan would have been able to have an extra large serving of olives and bread and later on oranges and probably gotten drunk from lack of food, but you cant please all of the people all of the time.

After 8 years of being a vegetarian I do become sick when I eat something that isn't vegetarian by accident so this isn't an issue of sucking it up for the day. Also, I will not put my beliefs to the side and don't have any friends or family who would expect me to.

In terms of the etiquette surrounding this issue, I agree that it depends on the situation. Depending on whom is hosting the dinner I will either eat something light beforehand and eat the sides or for close friends or family I may bring something along. No one ever takes issue with either of these two methods. I have never demanded or made a scene about it and my friends know that it's my choice and I deal with it. Any dinner parties I attend are about more than just food so to stop someone from going soley because they dont' eat meat seems strange.
Segregating people for being"picky" eaters, keeping kosher, being diabetic, tracking weight watcher points or not liking lima beans is laughable all the same.

Actually, this thread isn't sad, it's hilarious! Of course ladymantle isn't serious--no one is that ignorant. People are vegetarians for a wide variety of reasons: health, religious, moral, ethical, environmental, etc. No one would expect a vegetarian to put aside their beliefs for the sake of being agreeable, or social, or even polite. Would they? Or, would they? Because if people really are that ignorant, then yes, this a very sad thread indeed.

creative license, not every party is for everybody. Many were the times we have graciously declined invitations to World-Series-beer-pizza parties, swingers' evenings, single malt tastings - why? Because our lifestyle choices or interests are different or because of health issues. We would not dream of accepting an invitation to a theme party and then demand special treatment. On the same note, a pig barbecue or a turkey dinner simply are no places for vegetarians. Most vegetarians have made a conscious choice and have to accept that it would exclude them (and possibly their partners) from certain social events. They have made their bed of salad and are welcome to wallow in it.

Oh ladymantle, how I envy your social calendar! Swingers evenings, single malt tastings, and pizza parties? You seem to be in the position of declining more invitations than most of us are fortunate enough to receive. Hopefully someone will post photos of the vegetarians wallowing in the salad bed. How festive!

The reason for the event isn't the holiday meal per se, it is coming together to mark the holiday. Putting the emphasis on the meal as an individual "right" is both selfish and self-righteous.

Bear in mind how much juggling hosts have to do -- I guarantee the vegetarian isn't the only case... there are those with food allergies, religious food directives, celiac disease.... the list goes on. And then there are food preferences (my father-in-law won't touch salads or vegetables, for example). It is hard enough to come up with a do-able (time-wise, cost-wise and effort-wise) menu, much less one that accommodates the long litany of guests' food issues. Sometimes, it is just not humanly possible to accommodate every guest's needs so that they feel like a king.

I find vegetarian holiday meals to be particularly onerous -- much, MUCH more labour-intensive and time-consuming than a regular roast turkey or goose with sides (and that is the real issue for me). I've made nutmeat paté in brioche and sage and cheese roulades -- probably triple the amount of work of the regular meal.

My current kitchen is so minimal that I cannot prepare both vegetarian and non-vegetarian meals simultaneously (do not have the fridge, oven, or counter space to do both), and so find that I cannot include vegetarians in a broader party -- I invite them separately to a vegetarian event.

It's no wonder that people don't have dinner parties anymore!

And Trish 1980, if a guest told me 3 days before the event that they had "food issues" and avoided sugar and refined carbohydrates, I would be very gracious about it to the guest's face, but upset otherwise.

"If you put the ball in the hostess' court, it's hard to offend her."

Wrong.

Putting in the host's court is putting an additional burden on them.

Three days time before the event -- *after* all the planning, major shopping, and do-ahead prep -- is too late to accommodate someone with ease.

It means re-jigging the menu at the last minute, making special or extra dishes... It becomes a burden on the host at that late date.

Of course the host is not going to let it show!

I have food issues -- I cannot eat rice or highly fibrous foods -- they will put me in the hospital for a week, and threaten surgery (and possible death). If I am asked ahead of time (at the time the invitation is made), I inform the host. Otherwise, I do the polite thing and the necessary thing, and just EAT AROUND IT. I don't consider it my right to have the host cater just to MY needs ahead of anyone else's.

@mschatellaine:

I only speak from personal experience. I host parties all the time, and three days is plenty of lead time for someone to give me a heads up. The vast majority of us on here are not hosting state dinners, are we? I don't know personally anyone who's actually done with their shopping and menus that far in advance. People who have hosted parties I've been to tell me that any more than that is too much lead time for them. The point is, 'putting the ball in the hostess' court' does NOT mean expecting her to change the menu or bend over cater to my needs. I ask her what is easiest for her. Did you read my post thoroughly, or just that one line? I'm putting the ball in her court by asking her what she would prefer me to do. If a hostess hides her feelings, lies about what's easiest for her, and grudgingly adds a special dish just for me while wishing that I would take care of myself, after I've told her I'm happy to bring my own or eat around what she already has, well, that's bad communication and not good hostessing.

Trish 1980:

Just about everyone *I* know has kids and full-time jobs, and so of course telling a host "oh, by the way, I prefer to eat a low-glycemic diet - will you have food for me or shall I bring my own?" 3 days before the event places a burden on them -- at least all of those without their own chefs. No one I know would think of saying such a thing to a host; I certainly wouldn't. (In my world, grocery stores close at 6:30 pm, and are not open on Sundays, making it even more challenging.)

"Putting the ball in the host's court" is equivalent to "putting the host on the spot".

And in this case, we were talking about a 90 year-old host -- definitely not someone I am going to trouble with my food issues.

I think that this issue highlights socio-cultural differences that people need to be sensitive to when they travel encounter people with non-American roots. They may unwittingly appear very rude to their hosts.

I agree that three days out is not enough time to throw a gravy ladle in the works. It's not a matter of whether the host is at ease with accommodating... it's just common courtesy. Bravo, Trish, that you are such a pro to take that in your stride, but I think you might be he exception.

As far as the original question, the *only* way to handle it is to ask the host if you can bring a dish *because of your husband's food-style* in advance. If you ask, "Can we bring something?" you are apt to get a gracious No from the host... since it appears at first to be an offer to help, which most old-school Thanksgiving hosts will refuse.

Keep in mind, though, that many Thanksgiving hosts have limited burners, and have perfected the 6-courses-on-four-burners dinner prep dance. Another dish that "just needs to be reheated" could send the whole thing into a tailspin.

But also, if I were hosting, I'd rather be asked/informed well in advance, than to discover when the turkey platter is being passed, that one of my guests had a food preference I was not given the chance to address. I think that moment would make it awkward for all.

Perhaps three days isn't enough notice, but I liked Trish's advice for two reasons:

1. It let's the hostess know ahead of time that one of her guests has a food issue. As I said in an earlier post, I tend to to keep my mouth shut and eat what I can when I'm a guest--I don't like to make waves. As a host, however, I want my guests to be happy! My dinners are more about the guest list, less about the actual menu (although I do work hard--in advance--to prepare a delicious menu). I would be mortified to learn that one of my guests was uncomfortable voicing a dietary preference or health issue.

2. I sort of liked the idea that Trish waits a bit before phoning her host. That way, her host has an opportunity to plan the menu with being encumbered by everyone's food issues (and doesn't everyone seem to have some issue or another?). Trish isn't saying, "Here's my list of dietary needs, please plan around me and everyone else who has a food issue," she's saying, "I know you already have a menu in place, I'm sure it's going to be wonderful, but please let me know ahead of time what you're planning because there are certain things I can't eat. I'm sure I'll be able to fine something, but if not, I'd be happy to contribute, or eat a little something at home....." or whatever.

To exclude someone from a Christmas dinner because they don't eat turkey is obviously absurd. Is it really about the food? Like I said, it's always easiest for me to say nothing because I never want to be a bother (but that's my own issue). That being said, I see nothing wrong with letting the host know ahead of time that there are things you won't be eating. That way, she won't be mortified when she sees you with an empty plate.

I agree, generally, but I don't think anyone is talking about excluding someone. At least intentionally.

And in this case, it is not a nut-allergy-gluten-free-organically-grown list of demands... just a "can't eat meat" thing, which I think of all the dinner invite times, Thanksgiving is the easiest time to work around that, given the plethora of rich and satisfying vegetable side dishes.

A naive question for the crowd, though... would a vegetarian be comfortable with cooked-in-the-turkey stuffing, even if the stuffing itself is meat-free?

And a side note: I am trying to seriously limit carbs right now, and although I would NEVER ask that to be addressed by any host in advance, I really would love to see some more holiday and guest-worthy recipes that are low or no-carb. Only if it then allows me to indulge in dessert. :)

There is another issue here - unless the host stipulates "potluck", the dinner is HIS/HER show and the reward for planning, buying, cooking and serving is the guests' enjoyment and appreciation of the artful balance and combination of the courses. Denying him/her this reward by either refusing to enjoy and appreciate the food or even by ruining the balance or trying to upstage the host by forcing another dish on the table is just churlish. If you cannot or will not enjoy and appreciate what is served, just send your regrets, or say you will come for a drink before dinner and then excuse yourself.

ladymantle--

Dear god, forgoing the gravy or passing on the potatoes (both of which I have done at dinner parties) is hardly the affront to a host you make it out to be. And eating EVERYTHING on the menu should not be a requirement for attendance at anyone's dinner party. That places the host squarely in the "control freak" category. And, having attended THOSE kinds of dinner parties, too, I can tell you that type of host strips away all the intended joy of a meal shared among friends.

patrick, I agree and have done the same many times without offending anybody. What would be offensive, though, would be to insist that the host serve rice as well as potatoes OR making a big show of passing on them OR bringing your own container of rice. The article suggests all of the above. Please see my reference to orthorexia nervosa in our other discussion. A person who does not have this disorder would simply show up at the dinner and pass on the food they don't want to eat, without making a fuss with the hostess in advance or even bringing their own food (or needing to discuss it on the internet). This is just not healthy behavior.

Patrick, I think you'll find the answer to the stuffing question is definite no. To give you some idea of it from a non-meating perspective, if your host offered you something that had been cooked inside a warm corpse, would you find it appetising? ;) Actually though, you've reminded of an article I read many years ago, when a haggis-making company first decided to introduce a vegetarian haggis to their range, yet couldn't understand why it wasn't selling. They were stuffing the veggie haggis inside sheeps' stomachs!

As for your carb's question, can I suggest, where possible, try to eat unrefined sources such as muesli, wholemeal bread, whole grain rice and eat your potatoes, either boiled or baked and keep those skins on! I found that eating muesli for breakfast put an abrupt end to my snacking habit as the different sources of carbs in it, brake down at different rates and give me a constant flow of energy till lunchtime! By eating my potatoes, root veg and fruit with skins on (well-washed!) I get all the nutrients and not just the sugars and, as with whole grains, I get the right amount of fiber in my diet (rule of thumb (metaphorically!) - if your turds float, you have enough fibre in your diet; if they sink, you're not eating enough fibre and, if you're still straining... well... Equally, too much fibre and everything's going to whistle through the system so fast you won't have a chance to digest it properly and absorb the nutrients!). Rather than cut carb's out and miss out on their benefits, just cut down and eat slightly smaller portions, and avoid, where possible, processed carb's as in kid's cereals, potato or cereal-based snacks (chips etc), white bread, fried potatoes, sweets, cookies, cakes. Don't make yourself miserable by cutting out the things you love completely and, if your carb' concerns are related to weight worries rather than other health concerns, just swap your usual dinner plate for a slightly smaller one. It will take a little less to fill it and will still look like a proper meal. Eat well. Walk more. Laugh more. Have fun. And, on occasion, enjoy a carb-rich dessert!

Across, why do you think it's beneficial to eat potato skins? They contain several poisons (even when cooked) and an infusion of them is traditionally used as a pesticide.

Hmm, over 90 years? Maybe secretly she is hoping and praying that someone takes over the burden of having to plan and prepare all of this. My mother is in her 80's, a social butterfly and LOVES to host parties. She is a perfectionist. But I can tell you that after awhile even though she did it all with a smile on her face and still seemed to thoroughly enjoy it, she was secretly wishing that someone else would do it. Once we found out that she no longer loved it like she used to things changed, and we let her just relax and enjoy the family during the holidays. Perhaps your relative has a different view on it, but responsibility and family traditions are held in such high regard for some people that they feel they are letting their family down if they do not continue with things as they have always been. Who knows? Maybe you will be answering her secret prayer.

By ADDING a dish to the mix? I think not! :)

And AcrossThePond--

While I was really only looking for some alternatives to mashed potatoes (like a recipe for Cauliflower Mash which I've since come across), um, thanks?, for the stool analysis.

The corpse reference, (while I know you were using it to make a point) a tad extreme, and extremism is often the issue I have with vegetarians in general.

But I think you did it all in the right spirit, so thank you for taking the time.

God, you lot are serious, aren't you?

Ladymantle, everything is toxic if you eat enough of it. Give it a go.

Patrick, the corpse reference was meant to be light-hearted. You see, THIS is why so many vegetarians keep their mouths shut. As evident on this page, we get shed- loads of abuse and yet, if we so much as attempt to, even light-heartedly explain ourselves, we are pillaried for being 'extremists'! You asked 'why' about the stuffing and I,like a bloody fool answered when I should've been a 'good little vegan' and kept my gob shut like the rest.

Vegetarianism has become so common, actually, that most people include at least one vegetarian offering when they plan a dinner party (meaning, there is at LEAST one vegetable/bean dish that hasn't been cooked in chicken broth or sprinkled with bacon bits). Gone are the days of frying everything in bacon fat--at least that's been my experience. Laura's original question (and we have certainly strayed from that, haven't we?) was whether she needs to bring a special main dish for her husband, and I still believe the answer to that one is No. Call the hostess, make sure she has a dish or two that's meat-free (if not, offer to bring one), and make sure you eat a little something beforehand if you're concerned about your stomach making funny noises. Other than that, why place so much emphasis on food? The hostess is kind enough to have you to her home for the holiday, so go and enjoy the festivities. No need, however, to compromise your principles. Simply enjoy what you can, and supplement the meal when you get home. Again, any hostess who takes issue with what you do or don't put on your plate is sort of a bad hostess. (And ladymantle, orthorexia nervosa has nothing to do with being a vegetarian. Choosing not to eat meat, contrary to what you might think, is NOT an eating disorder.)

Corpse = lighthearted. Um, okay.

I asked for recipe ideas. And you gave me a nutrition course that involved the word "turds."

Apparently some of your humor was lost in translation, which happens here, yes.

I did acknowledge that I thought you were trying to be humorous, and did thank you for your response, while diplomatically expressing my opinion (not even about you specifically), and yet you still felt compelled to respond by playing the "we vegetarians are the persecuted ones" card anyhow, and got a bit defensive in the process...

Do you see how I could find it all a bit extreme?

Ah yes, 'playing the persecuted card' what a handy little phrase that is.

When the eco-conscious leather alternative sensible shoe fits...

You need to eat less carbohydrates mate!

You forgot to mention 'fair-waged' in your little dig.

xoxo and a happy new year, mate!

"if your host offered you something that had been cooked inside a warm corpse, would you find it appetising (sic)? "

And this is why vegetarians are so popular with so many hosts... not many will actually say it, but most are thinking it, creating such a delightful tension at the table...

Just for people's information, vegetarianism has been held up by the courts as the same thing as an (organized) religious belief. In order to be a religious belief, something has to be practiced similarly by a good number of people and practiced consistently. There've been a few state courts that have argued against this and made a distinction between organized religion and personal morals, but the higher courts usually rule that vegetarianism is the same thing as a religious belief. And really, how is it any different? I keep Kosher, and wouldn't suffer any medical problems if I stopped, and the rationale for doing so is based on myths that I can't even prove happened. Yet I have the right to have my beliefs respected, since it's consistent and a decent number of people practice the same thing. And no, people with ANY belief system shouldn't be an ass about it and act holier-than-thou, but people should be respectful of different beliefs and accommodate them.

eeka, the same logic can be applied to child abuse.

Hate to break it to you, mschatelaine , but you are no mind-reader. The last thing vegetarians are thinking about is what is on the meat-eaters plate and vice versa. We're too busy enjoying what is on our own plates and, more importantly, enjoying the company.

"eeka, the same logic can be applied to child abuse."

Now, that's the kind of attitude that would create tension at anyone's dinner table.... or, at least, I'd like to assume so!

AcrossThePond, you are right about the tension; however, it would only apply to dinner tables to which people capable of eeka's reasoning are welcome.

"the corpse reference was meant to be light-hearted"

Right, really enjoyable company, that.

I think that AcrossThePond was only trying to emphasize that vegetarianism (for many people) is more than just an alternate dietary choice. For a lot of vegetarians (not all) it's not just, "I don't like the taste of meat." As I said earlier, people are vegetarians for a variety of reasons, some of them quite personal, I would imagine. But that doesn't mean that all vegetarians are out to convert all carnivores! My goodness, we all have different political, religious, social (the list goes on) beliefs. Does that mean we can't sit down to a meal together without first agreeing on everything? Again, I think that all AcrossThePond was saying was that he or she feels very strongly about the eating of dead animals. It was meant (I believe) to be a thought-provoking exaggeration. Talk about being closed minded and judgmental! I hardly think it's the vegetarian in this instance.

And ladymantle, please enlighten us as to the link between vegetarianism and child abuse.

creative license, eeka quoth: "...vegetarianism has been held up by the courts as the same thing as an (organized) religious belief. In order to be a religious belief, something has to be practiced similarly by a good number of people and practiced consistently." This would mean that practically anything from collecting beer cans and jogging to snorting cocain and child molesting can be considered religion.

Thanks, Creative License, you've near enough got me sussed!

I haven't read all the posts so I may repeat, appologies if that's the case. I am embarking on a similar journey.

Over the last year I began to cut down on my meat consumption, for many reasons - health environment economic. Without becoming a vegetarian, I knew that Thanksgiving day would be a day I ate meat, so I planned the weeks prior and after accordingly. And one of my resolutions this year is to cut out meat all together.

Several years ago my sister became an Chassidic Jew (we are jewish just not strict at all) This created a HUGE uproar in the family whenever she came to a gathering, she needed her own plate, silverware and meal. She would not eat anything that was served. She has since moved to Brooklyn and does not attend all the usual festivities and when she is in town she is slightly more leniant with herself.

I hope that my vegetarianism doesn't become the same controversy.

shayna, it depends on you and you only.

......and your family!

Hi Shayna,

I don't know if either of these sites are helpful at all but they may either offer, or have links to other sites that can offer you and your family support and advice.

www.shalomveg.com

www.jewishveg.com

AcrossThePond, what could her family or anybody else possibly do about it?

Given your comment 'history', I'd be wasting my time explaining it to you. No doubt you'll have some venomous retort at the ready, to add to the plethora of obnoxious abuse you've bombarded people with so far but, whatever you think you are being, you're not being clever, your not being entertaining and if you think that's cruel and uncalled for, trust me, it's nothing compared to what you've come out with. I'm not proud of myself to have written this but then, I would be thoroughly ashamed to be you.

Agreed. Ladymantle, please stop harassing people, and please stop comparing a harmless personal/moral choice to illegal and abusive behavior. Other people's beliefs and practices really don't affect you, so please find something else to do with your time.

Late comments as I only got to this today due to holidays.

I am a vegetarian but I cannot STAND it when someone brings their own dish unannounced to my parties. I love to plan menus and often have the table planned out and full so just actually adding the dish onto the table can be a challenge as is is often packed and planned out (yes, I often plan out the table settings and menus months in advance for things because it what I really love to do).

In my perfect world the senerio would be this: You are invited to dinner, you accept while letting the host know of your restrictions. Then tell the host how you understand that your restrictions could be a inconvenience and ask them to let you know in a few days so that they have time to think (if there is enough time) if you could bring a dish that fits in with their menu. This lets them actually have a moment to rework their menu if they would like or think of something that would be a good fit to the dinner for you to bring.

If you have some sort of restriction it is best to let the host know in advance because nothing makes me hotter in the kitchen than finding out that someone is not able to eat something that I have made. If they don't actually want to eat it I am fine with that and could care less - no one likes everything - but to find out that I have made a menu that is inedible for someone that is then unchangeable really hurts and makes me feel miserable.

By the same token, please don't fuss over us vegetarians while we are at your table pointing out to everyone that is able to hear in a 3 block radius what we can eat so that everyone notices our "special" diet nor do the same to anyone else with a restriction. Just pull us aside before the meal and whisper to us. Contrary to everyone that I dine with that looks at my plate and likes to make comments I really hate discussing vegetarianism at the dinner table. And everyone that isn't a vegetarian seems to find it the must talk about subject at every meal and I just hate it.

This is just in response to the anti-vegetarian troll up there, and I really should know better than to respond, but here goes anyway:

When I stopped eating meat, I lost 15 pounds without trying (over a safe amount of time), suddenly had far fewer GI troubles (which were mild, but they pretty much went away), and had far more energy. Why would I want to start eating meat again?

Ladymantle, where exactly do you get off equating keeping Kosher with child abuse? I can't decide if that's anti-Semitic or just ignorant.

moowhy, I was just trying to point out the failure in reasoning. Calling ME antisemitic is a good joke.

I actually stopped eating vegetarian because of dinner parties.

I'm pretty sure the failure in reasoning here isn't eeka's.

Anyway, what is the real difference between keeping kosher or halal and keeping vegetarian for ethical reasons?

I have a friend who can currently eat very few foods due to significant GI problems. I don't see why she should have to be excluded from social gatherings because of her dietary restrictions, and I don't see why a vegetarian or vegan should have to stay away from parties due to not wanting to eat meat.

moowhy, nobody should be excluded from a gathering because of what they do or don't eat.
On the other hand, one's eating preference does not give them a licence to be rude. Under "rude", we understand bringing own food when invited for a dinner, expecting the host to provide additional food for you, calling attention to your eating disorder/disability, lecturing others about their "disgusting" food choices, etc.
If you are invited to a dinner where you won't/can't eat the main course, either have a meal at home and just nibble on whatever side dishes you fancy, or decline the invitation and meet your friends over tea some other time.

Is there really such a thing as "Groundhog Day", I ask myself?

There seems to be but one 'person' who insists on "lecturing others about their "disgusting" food choices, etc." I think we all know who that is and I can't imagine anyone knowingly inviting that person to dinner.... certainly not twice.

Moowhy, she is not worth the bother!

AcrossThe Pond, do you prefer to be called Groundhog, then?

ATP, I know you're right, but I have to clarify:

Based on a comment on another thread, ladymantle disapproves of smoking and does not think non-smokers are obligated to accomodate smokers in a non-smoking home.

I absolutely agree with this.

I also think (hope, even) that, if a non-smoker visits a smoker's home, the non-smoker is in no way obligated to take a puff of a cigarette "just to be polite". The non-smoker should, of course, not then go on a rant about how terrible smoking is for one, because s/he did choose to go to the smoker's home.

Then if we consider this quote from this thread: "There seems to be no medical reason why that man cannot eat a piece of turkey to please a 90 year old lady. Obviously, he's either rude or mentally ill."

Why on earth would the same logic not apply to vegetarians? Why is it rude or crazy to not eat something one has ethical objections to eating? If the man kept kosher and politely refused the lovingly prepared bacon-wrapped scallops in cream sauce, would he be subject to the same criticism?

moowhy, we all make choices in life and live with them as best we can.
Reminds me of a story where a rabbi and a priest travel on a train together. The priest asks the rabbi: "I understand you are not allowed to eat pork. Have you ever succumbed to the temptation to eat a piece of bacon?" The rabbi smiles: "To be perfectly honest, yes, I have and found it delicious. I understand that you are not allowed to have sex. Have you ever succumbed to the temptation?" The priest blushes: "As we are being honest here, yes, I have." The rabbi beams: "Beats the heck out of pork, doesn't it?"